O: Your name is always near the top of the list of the '70s maverick filmmakers, with the likes of Martin Scorsese, Brian De Palma, and Francis Ford Coppola, but you weren't really part of that "scene," were you? Were you social with that group?
RA: No, I wasn't. I've never really palled around with anybody that does what I do. Nor do they. Directors rarely work with other directors. The only reason you know them is if you go to a Guild meeting or some awards show. Well, that's not always true. Alan Rudolph happens to be a very good friend of mine, but he also started out working with me as assistant director, then a writer, then a director of things that I produced. But other than that, it's very hard. I had a meeting at the Director's Guild the other day with [George] Lucas and Coppola and Scorsese and myself, and Clint Eastwood was on the telephone. I don't know any of those guys. I know Marty better than any of them, but we never really work with each other. Our relationship is mainly based on jealousy. [Laughs.]
O: You never talk about tricks of the trade?
RA: Oh, anecdotes. Pretty boring, I think.
O: Were you engaged with watching the product of that era—not necessarily from those directors, but everything that was coming out in the '70s? Were you as interested in what other people were making as what you were making?
RA: Yeah, I did. I watched a lot. People come to me and say, "What director influenced you the most?" And my answer to that is that I'm afraid I don't know his name. I look at films and say, "God, that's so awful. I'll be sure never to do that."
O: But did you see films that you liked back then?
RA: Oh, of course I did.
O: What are your moviegoing habits now?
RA: I don't see too many. The best movie I've seen in the last five years is the Brazilian film City Of God.
O: That's an unusual movie for you to like, since it's so stylized.
RA: Well, I don't know how they did it. I just sat there with my jaw agape. I don't know how they got those kids to do that. Boy, it was strong.
O: When you do TV, do you watch more TV? When you were directing Bonanza, did you watch Bonanza?
RA: I don't think I saw very many of the other Bonanzas, other than my own. But it's very competitive, you know, no matter what anybody says. You're comparing yourself with someone who's comparing himself with you. Whether we know it or not, we can't help that kind of comparison, and it strikes jealousy and those kinds of emotions. It's hard, because there's a lot at stake. Or at least we feel there's a lot at stake.
O: To be a strong director, do you have to be an egotist? To not want others to be as good as you are?
RA: You don't care about others being as good as you are; you just want to be better than they are. [Laughs.] No, it's just a matter of saying, "Look! I made this!" It's that awe that any kid has when he draws a picture, or builds a little tower of blocks. There's an ego-identification. It's a very strong part of our nature. I'm quite sure that all the articles you have written that have been published, you've read. And you have probably perused similar articles that other people have written. We're basically self-oriented creatures. I kind of like it that way.
O: There's a little bit of contradiction there in your own work, because you've often talked about how what shows up on the screen isn't necessarily just you, but the coming together of a lot of different parts.
RA: Well, yes, it's the elements that go into it. All I do is kind of arrange them. I don't really create anything.
O: Do you agree with the common perception of your work as misanthropic?
RA: I don't quite know what that means.
O: Do you consider yourself pessimistic about human nature?
RA: No, I don't at all. I find myself rather optimistic. But I think you have to show the truth. The truth doesn't necessarily follow anybody around and behave accordingly. It has its own behavior. When I do a piece and people say, "Gosh, that had kind of a downer ending," I don't feel that way at all. I feel I've just shown a piece of the truth. I consider that a positive.
O: Can you talk a little about some of the projects you've been linked to in the past that didn't come to fruition? Were there any that particularly disappointed you?
RA: Uh...
O: Would you like to hear a few names?
RA: Okay.
O: Petulia
RA: Yes, but I doubt I would've done anywhere near the same job. I think I wouldn't have done Petulia in as creative a way as Dick Lester did.
O: How about Ragtime?
RA: Ragtime, I think I would've done better.
O: For a long time, there was talk about you doing an Amos & Andy film.
RA: We still talk about it, Harry Belafonte and I. But I think I'm too old. It's too big a project. It covers too much territory. I'd love to do that, though, because it spans a century of some of the most poignant and relevant history that we have, dealing with the mixing of races. To capture people, put them on boats, bring them over here, and dehumanize them. And then to see them rise from that. I think it's a great history.
O: So it wouldn't have been just an adaptation of the radio or TV show?
RA: Oh no, no, no. It goes back to the original humor that the English music-hall performers did, when they started the minstrel shows. Somehow, things became funny when they put on blackface that weren't funny when they didn't put on the blackface. Once you figure out why that is, you've got a path to follow that brings us to where we are today, and where we will be. Which is, I imagine, that all the racial, religious, etcetera problems will be solved once everything is homogenized.
O: Homogenization is a good goal in your eyes?
RA: Absolutely. It's as good as any. If you're going to mix, you may as well mix.
O: Is there any way you could develop this Amos & Andy project and then pass it off to somebody else to direct?
RA: I don't know. I think Amos & Andy in itself—Harry and I still talk and argue about this all the time. I think no matter what we do, we're going to send the wrong message. The total message of Amos & Andy is cyclic, and the cycle hasn't ended yet. It's always going to be seen, no matter what we do or how it's done, as biased. Which is all right. But I don't know of a bigger, more all-encompassing subject. When the original Amos & Andy was on radio, the two white guys who played the leads, Freeman Gosden and Charles Correll, were the grand marshals of the NAACP parade in Chicago. And then a few years later, when they did the television show of Amos & Andy, they wouldn't let those guys in the parade.
O: Is it possible for a brainstorming session for a project like Amos & Andy to be as satisfying as actually creating it?
RA: No, not really. But yes, in a way. I mean, we've been at this for 10 years, and I just don't think in reality that I'll see it done in my day.
O: One last lost project: Did you see Mike Nichols' version of Angels In America?
RA: No, I haven't seen it, but I hear it's very good and I trust it is. That's a great piece, and I applaud them. It never occurred to me to do that on television, which of course is the way it should've been done. What I would never do is truncate it. People wanted me to get it down to two and a half hours, and I wouldn't do it. That's like doing a Reader's Digest version. It wouldn't work.
O: You started out in TV 50 years ago. Is it fair to say that the medium has gotten a lot freer?
RA: Absolutely. Without question. But the trouble is that you have an audience that's a little different than what you have in a dark theater. You have an audience that doesn't have to pay attention, that can get up and go to the fridge and get another beer, or do whatever they want to do. And even if you have 10 billion viewers in one night, it's still yesterday's news the next day. That's the problem with it. It's too disposable. With film, you get, "Oh, I haven't seen that yet, but I'm going to see it," and "Oh my God, we saw that last week, and it was really good." A film can run for three or four months, with an accumulation of chatter from people who are seeing it and seeing it again. That doesn't happen in television.
O: On the other hand, a lot of people these days wait to watch a TV series until it's collected on DVD, where they can watch it repeatedly.
RA: Well, that's great, except the problem there is that there's just so much selection. There's such a library to go through that as a director, how do you get the piece that you want to people? And you've still got to keep the audience's attention all the time. In a theater, when they stand in line, buy a ticket, and sit in a seat, they're less likely to get up and walk out than they are if they're sitting in their own homes. The phone rings and it changes everybody's attitude. For the artist, it's much more seductive to have your audience kind of trapped. Then my job is to make them not feel trapped, but to have them walk out saying, "Wow, I'm glad I saw that."
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