As a producer and rapper for Company Flow, El-P helped transform Rawkus Records into a major force in underground hip-hop. Following Rawkus' demise and the breakup of Company Flow, El-P reinvented himself as a critically acclaimed solo artist, innovative producer, and label head. El-P's Definitive Jux went on to develop a sizable cult following, thanks to buzzed-about releases from iconoclasts like Cannibal Ox, moody beatsmith RJD2, socially conscious fantasist Mr. Lif, West Coast smartass Murs, arty wordsmith Aesop Rock, underground legend Cage, and El-P himself.
Artists continue to seek out El-P's incendiary, distinctive production, and he's also branched out into film with his atmospheric score for 2002's Bomb The System. After finishing his eagerly anticipated second solo album, I'll Sleep When You're Dead, El-P spoke with The A.V. Club about his mustache, Diddy, Def Jam, longevity, dealing with major-label suitors, and RJD2's departure from the label.
The A.V. Club: According to your blog, it looks like you're growing a majestic new moustache.
El-P: No, that's long-gone. I haven't touched that blog since I finished I'll Sleep When You're Dead. That moustache was just there because I didn't have time to shave it off. [It represented] my everyday failure.
AVC: Did you get treated differently when you had a moustache?
EP: You do. You're not really prepared for that. I couldn't really put it into words. There's a certain kind of vibe. It's empowering. You get to a point where being creepy starts to feel powerful.
AVC: Is the actual process of making an album pleasurable to you?
EP: You know what, man? Honestly? I think I would have to say no. I think that it was not particularly pleasant. There were moments of clarity and there were moments of pleasure, but I'm a pretty intense person, and when I throw myself into a project, it's like… I can't say it's not enjoyable in any way, but it's definitely intense. And I don't know if intense is fun, you know? I put myself through the wringer. That's just how I work. Of course, there are moments of silliness and fun throughout the whole thing, but when I do a record, especially when I do my records, I definitely hole up and fucking lose my mind. When you're losing your mind, there's moments when it's really kind of fun, but still, you know it's insanity.
AVC: Do you think hip-hop is a dying art form?
EP: Uh, no. I don't. It's kind of like saying, "That's like saying rock is a dying art form..." to me. I've always made that clear in terms of how I view it. I think that people have been claiming hip-hop as being dead since the moment it started. I think there are people—and I can be included in that category sometimes—that get frustrated with what's going on at the time musically, feeling like maybe the industry has handcuffed itself, or trained its artists to do or think about music in a way that classically hasn't led to the greatest records in hip-hop. I think that it goes through lulls and phases, but no, I don't think hip-hop is a dying art form. I think it's impossible for hip-hop to be a dying art form. It's like punk died, I suppose you could say. There are all the offsprings of people who are influenced by punk. It sounds completely different—but it's still rock 'n' roll. When hip-hop came on the scene, it was the last legitimate creation of a new genre. So I do not think that hip-hop is dying. I just think that there need to be a lot of really good records.
AVC: It could be argued that major-label hip-hop is dying, that it's becoming too unwieldy and expensive to be profitable.
EP: Sure. I think there's a future for different ideas. I think that what's happening now is that some of the ideas that have been out there, that have been fueling the popular records and the bigger records that have been getting the push from the major labels, I think that they're operating off of ideas that have already expired. Especially in hip-hop, because hip-hop is always moving. It's always looking for the next style; it's always trying to one-up the last person. I think that somewhere along the line, capital and music always clash. I think that there are ideas that are on their last legs. Basically, people are pretty much done with certain statements. They've pretty much been done to death, been done well, even. But I think the music industry as a whole is going to have to face itself pretty hard soon. I don't think it has anything to do with the musicians. There's a responsibility as a musician to do the music that you want to hear. But nobody's going to be able to spend as much money on the music as they used to. I think that goes across the board.
Rap music needs a few new heroes. There are a few popping up and there. That needs to expand into a bigger idea. At the end of the day, it's just fucking music. And as long as motherfuckers are into it, I don't really see how it could evaporate. It's very possible that the major labels are not going to be as supportive of it any more. It doesn't seem to be making for incredible pop music any more, and it doesn't seem to be, for the stuff being churned out by the major labels, making for particularly significant cultural pieces either. So I just concentrate on doing what I do, and working with the people I work with, because I think that those guys are trying to do that.
AVC: Who outside of the Def Jux camp gives you hope for hip-hop's future?
EP: There are a lot of dudes. At this point, it would be hard to say. At this point, my relationship to the music has changed. I like songs, because people aren't delivering me full albums that I really think are masterpieces any more. But as much as people might get annoyed by Kanye West, that dude has made a huge impact in a positive way. And I think Kanye was an interesting personality to jump onto the scene. He completely stuck his chest out and challenged people in a way that people didn't like. Also, he did self-produced albums that had whole visions to them. And that's a big element too. The crews that are going to be self-produced are going to make the great albums, as opposed to making these mix-tapes, these compilations—"Me over this guy, me over this guy." It sounds good individually, but the art of the record is something that is lost. You can equate it to R&B, to a degree. It gets to the point where it's just vocalists and producers coming in and piecing things together. When you start to get hip-hop records by motherfuckers who literally aren't even writing their rhymes or producing the music, then you have to look at it and say, "What is this?" because this is our shit, a point of pride for us—that we were creative, that this wasn't a construct. There are a lot of guys here and there, but to be honest, I really just turn myself inward. Maybe I don't care as much because I see people around me every day that are passionate about making music.
AVC: There's a real one-size-fits-all quality to a lot of these major-label albums. Diddy and Nas are worlds apart, but they basically seem to be operating from the same blueprint in terms of making an album with the same people.
EP: Except that Nas is a fucking legitimate poet and needs to be revered. I don't think there's anybody who's particularly interested in Diddy's album, though. Not to sound like "that guy," but I don't think there's anyone interested in the type of album that someone like Puffy's making. Even if there's good moments on it, it just comes off as disingenuous.
AVC: You were with Rawkus from the beginning. Where did things start to go wrong?
EP: Well, I've spoken about this so many times, but I think that if I had to boil it down, my business relationship with them wasn't good. We had internal dealings and business dealings that were shady and that I couldn't take. And I think that probably exemplifies a bigger problem, a bigger issue. I don't really know, man. I had so much business between it, and I had such a strong opinion on it for so long… What's the point of kicking them when they're down? I think that every record label has its trials and tribulations, its ups and downs. The only thing you can do is hope to recognize what it is that makes you great, and to try and continue to capture it. I think Rawkus played the game a little too hard. I think they got a little too excited and tried to get with the big boys a little too quick. Spend big-boy money, and they weren't sitting at the big table. And that sort of trickled down into everything, to the insecurity of what they were putting out, to the A&R decisions that they made, to finding people and not putting their records out, spending a shitload of money…
There are a whole bunch of reasons why a label doesn't work. I don't think it's any… I've owned a record label now for six, seven years. It's hard. It's fucking hard. And it's fucking hard to stay afloat. And really, the best thing that you can do is try and be aware of what people love about you and stick to it not because you're afraid of anything, but just understand the idea. And move forward with that in mind. It's also important to have a really straight-up operation. And a lot of record labels don't have their shit together, and they don't have the philosophy behind the way they do business together. With me, I'm going to have a label where no one is ever cheated, ever. And in order to do that, everything has to be completely transparent, and we have to be a fucking operation that can answer a question at any given time. Quite frankly, the behind-the-scenes story with Rawkus was that pretty much everybody who ever dealt with Rawkus felt like they got money stolen from them, or cheated out of them, at some point.
AVC: Def Jux seems to have picked up where Rawkus left off.
EP: To a degree. I definitely left Rawkus with an idea that I was holding onto what was the right departure point, to do a label and be involved with art and taking responsibility of people's careers. The fact of the matter is that it really just boils down to the record. Who the fuck cares about the label? It really doesn't matter, and no one would even give a fuck if the records weren't great. And when Def Jux is putting out records that people are responding to, we feel it. When we're putting out records that people are responding to, it's amazing. And it's obviously what we shoot for every time. It's a tricky balancing act. But as long as it's sort of a righteous idea, then you're good to go. Who the fuck knows if Def Jux is going to be around in five years? Who knows if any independent record label is going to be around?
- Comments