AVC: Was naming your label Def Jux a deliberate provocation?
EP: No, no, no. If anything, it was an honor. It was respect. Def Jam is the reason why I started a label. Seeing Krush Groove when I was, whatever I was, 10, I don't know, in the theater. I skipped school four days in a row to watch Krush Groove. All my heroes up on the screen, and then seeing that it was a record label, and then the mechanisms behind it. No, no, no, it definitely wasn't that. In fact, the whole time, it was Definitive Jux, and we just started calling it "Def Jux" as a nickname. It just was snappier. And we thought it was kind of cool. We thought it was a send-up to that, you know? They, on the other hand, didn't think it was too funny.
AVC: Their lawyers in particular probably didn't think it was terribly funny.
EP: Yeah, but I think that those cats kind of… They know. I've been up in Def Jam, and I've met all those dudes, and they know that it wasn't disrespect. But they did send a cease-and-desist letter to me, and I was like, "All right, fuck it." No big deal. It's not about the name. It's about what we do.
AVC: Wouldn't the first amendment cover naming your label Def Jux?
EP: Of course. When you get into trademark infringement and you get into David versus Goliath, Goliath tends to have a bigger pocketbook. I always joke about it: "I always wanted to do a deal with Russell Simmons, and now I've got my signature on a piece of paper with his."
AVC: It just happens to be a cease-and-desist instead of a contract.
EP: It was just one of those situations. When they hit us with that, we were surprised, but kind of amused. We didn't even have an office. We were sharing a friend of ours' office and paying $300 a month for rent. Maybe we thought for a second, "We can fight this." But then we thought, "What's the fucking point?" If some independent hip-hop label came out with a name like Def Jux, I would probably be annoyed, because of how much work I put into what I've done.
AVC: So you wouldn't be happy with my new label, Def Jaxxx.
EP: I'd be happy with it, but you'd be hearing from my people. You've got to suffer the way I have.
AVC: It seems like a lot of rap labels, especially independent rap labels, have their moment in the sun and then disappear. Why do you think Definitive Jux has managed to stay around for so long?
EP: We haven't been completely immune. The first couple of years, we released record after record after record that everyone was loving. And then we had a period where people were like, "Why did you release this record?" And all of a sudden it was like, "Def Jux isn't doing it anymore." But I think that that faded pretty quickly when people started realizing that it didn't signify the end of an era, it just was a moment of transition. We've managed to stick around because a) we're a fucking good operation, and b) we've got some great fucking artists. Period. And those peoples' voices are vital. And people really love them. And we've continued to be pretty damn consistent in finding those voices and putting them out. I think that's really it, man. We could be gone tomorrow, and it only boils down to the music. The fact of the matter is, if you're not putting out stuff that people are feeling, then your record label doesn't mean a goddamn thing.
But I think what probably really saved our asses is that we've been forward-thinking and one step ahead of the curve. Me and my partner are very adamant about understanding the industry and trying to prepare for where it's going and the way it's changing, and being on top of business and technology, and how to handle the intricacies of all that. A lot of record labels are groups of guys who put a record out, and they sell to a distributor, and some of them get lucky, and the records are powerful, and they kind of blow up. And that's what happened to us. But then you're faced with the idea of either being a group of guys who just put a couple records out, or really learning your business and becoming an operation. Because if you don't, then you are fucked. You will sink, and you won't have any money, and you won't have your books balanced, and you won't be paying people correctly, and you won't have your operation together. And I think Def Jux is—I would say pretty confidently that we are the tightest operation in our little part of the music world. No matter what's happening at the time, and no matter what the record is at the time, we've fucking sweated blood and tears to become that way. Because we don't have any intention of falling through the cracks due to a clerical error.
AVC: Have you been approached by majors looking to buy Def Jux?
EP: Every single year of our existence. And I've been approached by major labels every single year of my existence as an artist. Since 1996. And the reason why people do it is, there comes a point where you just hit a fucking ceiling. Where the artists want to be bigger, they want to get more money, where you have to take the next step, where you have to get… People don't want to be at a label and be stagnant. Most people aren't happy about being consistent and staying at the same place for years. People want forward progress and motion. As you get bigger, your staff gets bigger, and your costs get bigger. Most independent labels hit a point where it's like, "Holy shit. We're not going to be able to afford next year." You know? "Everything's been going great, but we've got to pay such-and-such this amount of money, where we started out paying no money to anybody up front. Now we've got to pay 50 Gs to this person. And then we've got to give him a video, and then we've got to spend $3 or $4 on marketing per unit, and then we gotta…" So it's very easy to panic and to get into that situation.
That's when the majors come in. They smell blood, and they say, "Well, hey. Here's a couple million dollars, we're taking it." You know, that's fucking something. And we've definitely been approached often by that. And I'm certainly not the type of person to rule out something like that in the future. But, that being said, I've always believed that if you cannot do it, then you should not do it. And only when it comes to the point where you've literally dug yourself into a hole, where it's sink or swim, is that viable to me. We've worked hard at being smart about other revenue streams and generating other types of business so that there's money coming in, so that we don't have to do that. But it's tough, man. And every label knows it. And the worst part is that if you become part of a major—all these independent labels become farm teams for your corporate parent. Basically, you do all the work for years, blowing up an artist—you discover them, blow them up, you build their fan base. And then you put a half million dollars in the artist's pocket over the course of three years or something, and then that artist is like, "Okay, now I'm here. Now I want more. I want to be bigger." And you're either going to be able to accommodate them, you're going to be able to figure out how to take that step with them, or you're going to lose them.
AVC: What's the status with RJD2? Is he still on Def Jux?
EP: No, RJ signed on to XL Recordings. The fact of the matter is, RJ took a huge musical departure from what he did with Def Jux. And when we were talking to him about doing the next album, we really hadn't understood how far he had gone, or what he was trying to do. But when I finally heard the music and discovered that he was pretty much trying to depart from hip-hop, and depart from instrumental records, and become a singer, I was kind of like, "You know what, man? Definitely. Do your thing. Because it definitely won't fit into the criteria of what we do, and we wouldn't be able to push you into the scene in the way that you want to be pushed." It made perfect sense with him.
At first, it was like, "Oh, shit. No, man. We don't want to lose you." But at the end of the day, I respect these dudes. And I respect RJ, because he was like, "I just don't think you guys are the label for this." And I was like, "Fuck you. Of course we're the label for this." And then he played me the music, and I was like, "Oh, right. We're not the label for this." It wouldn't make sense to put out RJ's new stuff, because it's just not the culture that we've cultivated.
AVC: That's another way rap labels go astray—they lose their original identity. They branch out in ways that aren't necessarily conducive to longevity.
EP: Well, I think branching out is cool, but I think that you have to branch out in a way that makes some sort of organic sense. I would love to put out a rock record eventually, but it would have to somehow philosophically make sense for me. But I think that we're the type of label that could eventually step into that arena, because we do have such a diverse audience. At the end of the day, we're not there right now. That's not what we do right now, and that's not what people are looking for from us.
AVC: Why wasn't Vast Aire's solo album released through Def Jux?
EP: We offered it to him, but at the time he thought he wanted to branch out, do something with another label. I think that he thought it would be a good move for him, that he would be a big fish in a little pond. And I think that his manager at the time just thought it would be better to separate the Cannibal Ox stuff and the Vast Aire stuff. Basically, "I'm going to do it this way." I think it was him testing the waters on the business side. We were the first label he'd ever done business with. And then, when they did business with us, we weren't the operation that we are now. We were just people putting a record out. We didn't have accountants and business managers and lawyers and blah, blah, blah.
AVC: You were smaller.
EP: We were a lot smaller, and we were a lot less organized. He and his manager thought it would be a good idea.
AVC: It seems like one of the reasons Def Jux has been successful is because you don't really follow trends. Have you ever contemplated starting up a Def Jux South? Going where the money is?
EP: I can tell you, quite honestly, that I've never contemplated it. And I've contemplated a lot of things. But, no. Simply because that's ridiculous.
AVC: This new album of yours is not going to be all about hyphy?
EP: You know what, man? I'm a fan of some of the hyphy stuff. Hyphy has been going on a lot longer than the press has been recognizing it. Hyphy is just Bay Area music. I've been a fan of E-40 for fucking years. But, no, we're not doing hyphy music. It's not for any other reason than it's just not the sound we do, and it's not the pool of artists that we're fucking with right now.
AVC: Def Jux had battles with Esoteric and Sole. When something like that happens, do you ever wonder if you're giving them free publicity and doing them more good than harm?
EP: I know it! [Laughs.] Here, you're referencing the battle with me and Sole, which was in what, '98? Which any even casual observer would say that I slaughtered him. But you know, man, look… None of that shit… It's just fun, it's all fair games. At the end of the day, there is a culture to hip-hop and rap and being an MC that can't be ignored, and every once in a while, somebody's going to try and pull your skirt. And if you're so out of touch, then you have to decide: Am I the dude who completely ignores this? At this point now, yes I am. But at that point, when those cats was happening to tap on my shoulder, I guess I'm just cocky enough to say, "You know what? Okay, I'll play."
AVC: Who are five mainstream rappers that you respect?
EP: That I respect? Jay-Z, Nas, Redman, Ghostface, OutKast, Eminem, should I go on? There's tons. I don't draw those lines, I really don't. Within that criteria of mine, I don't give a fuck if you're independent or major or anything like that. A good rapper is a good rapper, a good album is a good album. I don't think anyone is inherently good. There's just as much, if not more, independent music that sucks. The press loves to get caught up in the minutiae of that. They like to draw lines and they like to take sides. And they like to switch sides. To me, whatever the fucking case, if you like the fucking album, then like the album.
« Previous | 1 | 2
- Comments