PA: No, because that fiction is propaganda. That
fiction is just lies. The kind of fiction I'm trying to write is about telling
the truth.
AVC: Is Man In The Dark a story you constructed
to help you deal with the catastrophe of 9/11, or with other violence around
the world?
PA: It's possible. There was another very important
factor, too. I don't know if you noticed to whom the book is dedicated. David
Grossman, he's an Israeli novelist and essayist. A great writer, in fact. And a
very close friend of mine, someone I admire more than anybody I know. He's such
a great person. His son Uri was 20 years old two years ago when he was killed
in the war between Israel and Lebanon. I knew the boy, and it was just a
shattering experience. Not just for David and his family, of course, who are
still suffering horribly, but me too. I was just knocked off my chair when I
read this. It was the very week when David and [Israeli writer] Amos Oz had
gone to [Israeli Prime Minister Ehud] Olmert and were begging him to make a
ceasefire. Two days later, Uri is killed, and two days after that, the
ceasefire had gone into effect. It was tragic all the way around.
AVC: Does making art out of these events help
us heal? Do you admire any particular so-called post-9/11 novels?
PA: Well, I don't know if it helps, it's just simply
that writers and filmmakers feel a necessity to do it. It's so urgent, it's
pressing down on us in ways that we can't escape. I guess of all those novels,
Don DeLillo's Falling Man is the one I like the best. I thought there were
some beautiful things in that, particularly the relationship between the man
who finds the briefcase and the woman whose husband owned the briefcase. It's
quite a beautiful passage.
AVC: In the novel, Brill spends a lot of time
with his granddaughter Katya, watching and discussing films. At one point,
Brill says, "Escaping into a film is not like escaping into a book." You've
written and directed films yourself. Can you elaborate on this idea?
PA: Books demand more. You have to be a more active
participant. [Brill] says, "You can actually watch a film in a state of
passivity and even enjoy the film." Often it's true that films just go right
through us. You see the film, you might be entertained, and if it's not a great
film, it loses its power very quickly. I think even simply acceptable books
stay with us a lot longer.
AVC: When Brill is talking about the film Tokyo
Story with
Katya, he mentions that "some films are as good as books," but compares the film
to a Tolstoy novella. Can the best films be only as good as the best novellas,
falling short of the scope of a full novel?
PA: Well, having made films, I know very well that the
scope of the average 90- to 120-minute movie is about the same narrative heft
as a long short story or a novella. Movies are not novels, and that's why when
filmmakers try to adapt novels, particularly long or complex novels, the result
is almost always failure. It can't be done. You need six hours, 20 hours, to
try to do it. The best filmmakers, I think, have always had very narrow
frameworks for their stories, and then they can go deeply, rather than skimming
the surface. When I think of Tokyo Story, yeah, it is like a novella. That doesn't
mean it's not great. Some of my favorite Tolstoy works are his novellas.
AVC: In the act of discussing books and films
with others who have read or seen the same things, do we ever really arrive at
a certain truth about the work, or can we only come as close as a common
meeting point?
PA: Well, everyone reads a different book. That's
what's interesting. Everyone sees a different film, as well. We bring our past
lives to whatever work of art we're experiencing at that moment, and that's
what makes it interesting. It's not mathematics. There are different answers
for different people. I think the act of talking about something—with a
friend, or someone in your family, or someone you care about, and you're
discussing something that you both admire—can often sharpen your thoughts
about what you've read or seen and help you think more clearly about it.
AVC: Does that happen for you when you're
talking about your own work?
PA: No, it's completely different. To tell you the
truth, I don't like talking about my work at all. I find it very difficult. I never
know what to say. It's too close to me, and there's so many things happening
unconsciously while I'm working that I'm not aware of, and people will point
these things out to me, and I'll say, "That's interesting." But I don't know
what to make of it.
AVC: Do you ever learn anything about your own
work from what other people say about it?
PA: No, I don't think so, to tell you the truth.
[Laughs.]
AVC: In Man In The Dark, when Katya and her
grandfather are discussing the films Grand Illusion, The Bicycle Thief, and The World Of
Apu,
she comes up with this theory of the object—
PA: Yes, about inanimate objects as a means of
expressing human emotion. I think it's important that you hear this
conversation about the first three films—there's the fourth film that
Brill speaks about later [Tokyo Story], but the first three films are discussed very
early in the book. Now if you think about it, each one of these films and the
themes in the films that they're discussing are very intimate. Themes between
men and women, husbands and wives. And because the story Brill is thinking
about is so huge and apocalyptic, the counterweight to that is in the intimacy
of these stories in the films. Then, as the book moves on, about two-thirds of
the way through, three-quarters of the way through, it takes a very sharp turn.
Then, suddenly, Brill and his granddaughter are together in the dark talking
about the family and his marriage to her grandmother. It becomes a very, very
intimate story at that point.
AVC: Yeah, you sort of expect the story he's
concocting for himself in bed to deliver the climactic moment of the novel as a
whole, but there's a shift.
PA: It's just a step in the progress of the night for
him. And that story is as much about Brill's state of mind as anything else.
It's almost a psychological portrait of him through the medium of a story.
AVC: There's also the character of Katya's
mother, Brill's daughter, Miriam. She's working on a book about Nathaniel
Hawthorne's daughter Rose, which leads Brill to abandon work on his own
memoirs. He makes the excuse that "one writer in the house is enough." Seeing
as how you're married to a novelist [Siri Hustvedt], it's hard not to interpret
that as an inside joke.
PA: Actually, I wasn't thinking about that at all. I
project myself so deeply into the characters in novels that I'm not thinking
about my own life. It really isn't a reference. I mean, if you want to see it
as a joke, it's fine. [Laughs.] But it wasn't intended that way, because
actually we're two writers in this house and it's perfectly nice. We have no
problems.
AVC: In Brill's alternate reality, he mentions
how the new Independent States of America have a foreign policy of "no meddling
anywhere" and a domestic policy of "universal health insurance, no more oil, no
more cars or planes," etc. But he also states that these things are "a dream of
the future, since the war drags on." Will these perfect things or ideas always
be off in some unattainable distance, as our own war drags on?
PA: See, I don't think of them as perfect things.
Medical care for the entire country seems to me a basic right. If every other
country in the West can do it, why can't we? It's not some kind of starry-eyed
vision of some utopian future, it's something we could easily do right now. I
think the Independent States of America in the book fully intends to do it, but
they've got their backs against the wall, and they haven't worked through it
yet.
AVC: There's a line in the book about how we
all go about our regular lives until "an unexpected event comes crashing down
on us to jolt us out of our torpor." September 11 jolted us, but was eventually
exploited to achieve mostly negative things. Can we be jolted into something
positive?
PA: It all depends. I remember those days vividly.
It's just seven years ago now. I can remember doing quite a few interviews at
the time, interviews with foreign press. Right here, in Brooklyn, the smoke was
coming into our house, and I was not fit for writing anything at that point. I
had just finished The Book Of Illusions, in fact, so I wasn't doing anything, and
people kept calling me from all these different radio and TV stations in Europe
and Japan to comment. And for once, I did it. I went out and talked. I can
remember saying again and again and again, "A terrible thing has happened, but this should be a kind of
wake-up call for our country, and we have a great opportunity now to reinvent
ourselves. To rethink our position about oil and energy, to rethink our
relationship with other cultures and other countries, and why other people want
to attack us." You know, all kinds of suggestions I was throwing out. I still
believe we wasted a golden opportunity to make significant changes in our
country. I think people in America would have been ready and willing to do it,
but the Bush administration took a kind of simplistic, almost moronic approach
to it, all because people were so afraid. And because Bush and his cohorts made
them so afraid on top of their legitimate fears, he got them to follow. It's
only now that it seems the public has woken up and is ready to boot him out of
office, even though he's leaving anyway. He's done. I look at him on TV now,
when he's giving a speech, I saw him on the news yesterday, and it's like
looking at a ghost. He doesn't exist anymore. He's finished. He's defunct as a
presence in American life.
AVC: Brill looks at Miriam's manuscript and
fixates on a line of Rose Hawthorne's poetry: "As the weird world rolls on…"
Throughout the book, there's this sense of life just happening to us, with or
without our input. Are we all just stumbling toward some gloomy fate?
PA: No! It's just the opposite. "The weird world rolls
on…" meaning that through all the ups and downs, all the travails that we go
through, all the horrors, all the wars, all the deaths, all the cruelties,
there's still something that keeps us wanting to wake up the next morning and
go on with our lives—to make children, to fall in love, to continue
humanity. So it's both. Life is deeply tragic and also very comic at the same
time. It's everything at once.
