AVC: As the industry itself tries to figure out where it stands on AI, I’m curious if you had any worry about placing a drama like Cupertino on TV right now?
MK: Not really because we have a home studio with CBS, so we brought it directly to them and pitched it. They embraced it immediately, and we’ve never gotten a moment of pushback from them or CBS network. We have been lucky that way.
RK: Michelle and I have a good kid, bad kid thing going on. We present ourselves as the good kids, but as soon as they let us in the door, we’re like, “Oh my God, let’s go after the NSA in The Good Wife” or something like that. You’re always looking for ways to break a little pottery.
AVC: What was the process of figuring out the stories to include in Cupertino‘s case of the week element so it stays current?
RK: Well, it’s not just both of us. It’s six other spectacular writers, five of whom we’ve worked with before on other shows going back to The Good Wife. So it was a constant back and forth in terms of ideas, articles, and culling through things we wanted to explore. The episode titles probably point to why we were engaged with the story. The title of each episode is the name of the client being defended. What we start with is the humanity, because that’s the only way to engage with such big concepts. In episode five, we have a data tasker, with a single mom, who makes $1,000 a week from doing this massive amount of tasks to teach the computers and AI of these billion and trillion dollar companies. The story doesn’t write itself, but you get why someone who is basically working day and night to teach a computer what a soft target and hard target looks like is fascinating.
AVC: What can you tease about some of the upcoming episodes, and do you have any favorites that stuck with you?
MK: Oh my God, that is really unfair, it is like choosing between your children.
RK: I will say, I know there’s an embargo on what’s coming out of the reveal at the end of episode two, but one of my favorite things, and it’s not just the subject matter, but the way we peel it away in that episode, about Rob McClure’s character. You’re always falling in love with subject matter, but when the subject matter is played by an excellent actor who moves it beyond your conception of it, it’s always the best. If I had to put a finger on it, there’s a bunker-related story which names names, is interesting, and points to these trillionaires who control our lives and it says, “Okay, this is the problem.” It’s high up on my list.
MK: I won’t say much but I do love it when they’re up in an airplane in the fourth episode.
AVC: No spoilers from me either, but I appreciated the episode featuring Method Man that digs into AI-generated music and how it affects artists.
RK: Yes! Aurin Squire wrote that episode. It’s something very close to his heart, the way the music industry is being eaten away from inside.
AVC: How did you assemble the cast for Cupertino, from reuniting with Mike Colter to the Girls5eva reunion with Busy Philipps and Renée Elise Goldsberry?
MK: We were hopeful from the beginning that Mike Colter would be Michael Price. Obviously, it’s not a particularly creative choice for the character’s name on our part.
RK: It’s like Andrea Martin playing Sister Andrea on Evil, so it worked out.
MK: We’ve never worked with Rachel Keller before, but she is spectacular, as is Ella Stiller. We could not be more fortunate.
RK: And yes, we are big Girls5eva fans, and we were really sad to see that show go away. Both of us just really wanted to work with Busy, especially because of Renée Elise Goldsberry. But there are some great people overall, including new faces like Nik Dodani.
MK: Nik is another actor we’ve wanted to work with because he’s great at comedy and drama, which is what we look for every time we cast any of our shows.
AVC: Do you have any dream guest stars, considering the show’s format?
RK: We’ve always wanted John Lithgow. We wanted him on everything we’ve done, and we got so close one year on The Good Fight. He’s remarkable and a lot of fun.
MK: We can put that out in the universe. And I will add Meryl Streep.
AVC: My pitch is for another Evil reunion with Katja Herbers as an Elizabeth Holmes-style character.
RK: Oh my God, Katja. She’s filming another TV show right now, I believe, but that would be so much fun to have her play someone like that.
AVC: Is it too early to ask if you’ve thought about the show’s future or how long you envision it going on for, and whether you’ll have enough material to do it?
MK: I mean, as long as CBS will have us, I guess. I feel like there’s so much material, I almost worry about the world running out before the material.
RK: You’re always worried about overstaying your welcome, but I do think the modern TV world is more about how you get canceled instead of [choosing to end.] We were stunned by Evil being canceled. Before that we were able to put our finger on deciding, “Okay, this is our last season and we might be able plan how to end it.” With that in mind, you’re securing two very cautious showrunners who, you know, have a larger appetite than I think TV wants to give you. That’s all a bad way to put it, but I think you understand.
AVC: You’re executive producers on Elsbeth, which is part of The Good Wife universe and airs right before Cupertino. What are the chances of a crossover?
MK: I don’t think that’s going to happen in terms of a crossover.
RK: But there are some really good guest stars this year on Elsbeth. Jon Tolins, the showrunner, does a great job. They’re about four or five episodes into filming right now. Cupertino started earlier, so we’re shooting episode 17 now. What I will say about Elsbeth is there will be more interaction between Wendell Pierce and Carrie Preston’s characters. There are no two more charming actors than them. They love working with each other, and you can tell, so the most fun time watching the show is when they’re interacting.
AVC: Having done this in The Good Wife, Evil, and now Cupertino, what’s the trick to make serious, relevant topics also feel lighthearted and funny enough for a network drama? How do you toe that line as storytellers?
RK: I think some writers are lie detectors. They react to lies like it’s a curse.
For us, it’s earnestness. That’s our version of lie detectors. When we sense that something’s getting too earnest, that’s when you throw in a fart joke or suddenly you have someone have massive diarrhea. I don’t think we did that this year, but basically there’s always something human. You’ll find a lot of food and alcohol is discussed in our shows, and that’s because there’s a humanity within the massive stories. Everybody goes to the bathroom or wants a good meal or have a good time drinking.
MK: That’s exactly it. Without it, stuff becomes unwatchable. Or it can get too serious, which we see often in news stories anyway.
AVC: You’re tackling the show’s subject matter from different points of view, but are there specific takeaways you wanted the audience to have from Cupertino?
MK: We wanted to ask more questions than make a definitive point of view because, yes, the characters don’t all have the exact same point of view either. If you start making one, then you get awfully close to preachy and then already I’m reaching for the remote control.
RK: I would summarize the instinct behind it is not to lose track of humanity because I do think the show is about how everybody in Silicon Valley is obsessed with the tech. The core meaning of our law firm, but also of our show, is that people is what it should all be about. AI is kicking a lot of people out of work, and will kick out a lot more. It seems stupid because who is going to buy these services if we don’t have money. I don’t care what Elon Musk says, there is never going to be income for everyone for free, that’s insane. I do think there’s this utopian view that loses track of the here and now and what humans are and what they’re about and the brilliance of the human brain. It gets downgraded when they compare it to AI.
MK: Yeah, that’s a lovely thing to bring it down to. Don’t lose track of humanity.
Saloni Gajjar is The A.V. Club‘s TV critic. You can read her review of Cupertino here, and follow her recaps of the show, which premieres October 8 at 10 p.m. ET on CBS.
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