AVC: What was it like working with him in front of a camera, in front of an audience?
JP: All of a sudden there was a feeling like anything could happen. He was riffing within the lines, which led me to riff within them. It was very spontaneous. We did two tapings, and they were a little different. For me, the thing I love the most is to let it unfold in the moment, because that’s what this art form is. It’s got to be created in the moment. We have to avoid the temptation to bring in “this is what it is,” which feels safer, but the audience isn’t interested in that.
AVC: Did your career get any help from that appearance? You have quite a bit of screen time.
JP: It was mostly that people in the neighborhood were like, “Hey, hey.” I grew up in Alphabet City in New York City. I wouldn’t say it was a rocket ship, but it was a bump.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1990)—”Raphael”/”Passenger In Cab”
JP: My agent called and said, “We have an audition for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.” I had him say that three times because I couldn’t put all those words together. Then he said, “And it’s an audition to be a turtle.” And that was more bizarre. But I’d started out early on in my career doing very experimental theater, very physical, raw theater. I was like, “Okay.”
I went in. At first, I was thinking, how do turtles move? And they kind of have their hands splayed back and push themselves forward. And that combined with people in my neighborhood that would move their arms, like, away from their body and to make themselves bigger and tougher, because it was such a dangerous neighborhood. People were walking around as if they were ready for action and almost making themselves look stronger than they were. So I played with that in the audition, that physicality. And I threw in a martial arts kick. From about nine to 13 I would get mugged all the time in the city. It was normal. Then I started doing martial arts, and then nobody ever bothered me after that, because it extended my awareness outward. So I threw in a bit of a little flying kick or jump kick. That began the journey.
AVC: People might say, “Oh, you’re just in a turtle costume for an hour and a half.” But it seemed like there was meat on the bone.
JP: Absolutely. Honestly, I don’t do Comic-Cons very often, but every now and then if all the other guys get together, I’ll be like, “Ok, I’ll do it.” People come up to me at those things, and they say, “That character saved my childhood.” “You were my childhood.” A lot of them had very tough homes and dealt with all kinds of stuff. And they say, “Raphael, because he was dealing with so much angst, helped me deal with my angst.” That whole movie meant so much, deeply, to so many people.
AVC: The physical part of the role, being in that 70-pound costume, how did that help you down the line as an actor?
JP: From morning to lunch break, we would lose five pounds. It was so incredibly intense. It felt like your blood was boiling. I used the intensity of being in that suit to create with. It helped me create the angst, the agony, everything that Raphael was going through. I let it emerge from my pores, through Raphael’s pores. Going forward from that, it taught me to trust [that] what I was experiencing in my body was the perfect juice for the character in that moment.
AVC: After TMNT, in terms of your onscreen work, there’s a six-year break.
JP: I was on Broadway for two years in I’m Not Rappaport. I don’t know if that lines up in that gap. Many years ago, as an exploration of acting or finding out how I would work, I trained with people, from all over the world, that were physically-based, impulse-based. After that two-year journey, people started asking me to teach. Then NYU asked me to teach. I was like, “Okay, I’ll try.” It turned out that I have a talent that I didn’t know that I had. From that, I developed something called Committed Impulse, which I’ve been teaching on and off throughout my acting career. It’s a laboratory for actors that want to be present and create in the present moment and step into the unknown. Over the years, people from all professions have been coming to train with me. Now I do maybe three or four weekend workshops a year.
Checkout (2026)—”Dov”
The A.V. Club: What was it like to be the lead in a movie?
Josh Pais: Honestly, I started out doing lots of small roles, particularly in Law & Order, and maybe this is arrogance or maybe it was my way to commit fully, but I have always treated everything like I was the main character in a sense so that I could create, regardless of the size of the role, somebody that has a full life and we’re just seeing a sliver of it.
But to directly answer your question, I loved being the lead. I loved having that kind of creative control. They also brought me on as a producer. So, it was absolutely fantastic. I’ve done several movies where I have had a lead role, but this one I was in every single scene. That’s new for me and I loved it.
AVC: Was it overwhelming to make that world so big for a character who is literally in every scene?
JP: It was not overwhelming. It was delicious, to be honest. When I first started out, it was like, here’s my one bump, make it as rich as possible. With this, it was more about taking time and in a sense, inviting the audience in to figure things out, where I don’t have to, you know, shoot my load in the first scene.
Sex And The City (1998)—”Nick Waxler—AKA ‘The Modelizer'”
JP: When it started playing on Netflix, a lot of people that knew me or knew my work but didn’t know I was on that put those pieces together. It’s similar to Raphael. It’d be like, “You’re Raphael?!” or “You’re The Modelizer?!” That was more of a career bump, because that show was also iconic and big.
I remember hanging out with Sarah Jessica [Parker] and Chris Noth and being like, “Hey, this is fun.” Because I was in the second episode [ever], my character would talk through the fourth wall. They were still finding the vibe of the show. And all those lines were so fantastic. God, one of them: “Some people think I’m shallow, but hey, I’m fucking a model.” Just a great line.
AVC: Did that role help you socially or were women repulsed when they saw you?
JP: No, they were into it—or maybe the ones that didn’t talk to me were repulsed. But the ones that did talk to me were like, “Oh my god, you’re The Modelizer.” It was helpful.
Rounders (1998)—”Weitz”
Leaves Of Grass (2009)—”Ken Feinman”
Motherless Brooklyn (2019)—”William Lieberman”
AVC: I suspect that Rounders, even though you have a very small role, was influential because of who you worked with. Was that the first time you met Edward Norton?
JP: That was the first time I met Edward. After that we became close friends and are still close friends.
AVC: How did you and Edward Norton click?
JP: Creatively, we were just in that dance and really connected to one another. On a lunch break, I sat with him and Matt Damon and shot the shit. Then I remember running into Edward in L.A. and we just chatted for a few minutes and that was that. It’s really when Leaves Of Grass came around where I have a central role in that opposite him—opposite two versions of him because he’s playing twins. We really connected and hit it off. We were in Shreveport, Louisiana, and we would just hang out and go fishing. It created a great friendship.
AVC: Did that lead to Motherless Brooklyn?
JP: Yeah. He said, “I got this part for you,” and so we jumped in.
AVC: What’s the difference between working with Edward Norton in a scene and him being your director?
JP: It was almost richer. We really talked about the role. He welcomed my input. He sent me an early version of the script, and I gave him some thoughts. He was extremely able, more than anyone I’ve worked with, to be in a key role and direct seamlessly. When he was in the scene, he was in the scene. And then when he cut, he was fully in director mode and then coming back. But it never felt like he was within the scene.
There wasn’t a ton of direction. There was some intensity because it was starting to become clear with Bruce Willis that he was having some trouble. It was before it came out more publicly. We all were like, “Ok, we’re going to rally together and make this happen.”
We started on a Monday. Me and Bruce Willis and Fisher Stevens and Edward had a meeting about what we’re filming that first day. And there was a lot of choreography with cars and coming out of buildings. Edward had this map of the street and talked about the history and what’s going to be required on that day in terms of cars and everything. He was really well-organized. After that, Bruce asked a question—it didn’t land. All of a sudden, it was like the synapses were not quite firing. We realized that he was going through something. And there were times where it was just tricky with holding lines. We all rallied around him because it’s Bruce Willis. He’s such an icon, and somebody that we all love and respect as an artist. It added another dimensionality to the connectivity between everybody.
Nobody was freaking out. And Edward was really calm, but it summoned all of our compassion. Because it’s a fear of so many actors—you’re on set and can’t remember your lines—and here was that embodied on a certain level. It brought everybody closer. It forced us to have to do filmmaking in a slightly different way. But Bruce’s heart and just talking to him—[he] is such a beautiful, great guy.
The Station Agent (2003)—”Carl”
JP: Tom McCarthy is one of my best friends. We did a play together—me and Bobby Cannavale and Tommy playing best friends at Bay Street Theater. A Lanford Wilson play [1996’s Virgil Is Still The Frogboy], and the three of us became best friends. So, Tom [asked if I could] come in and do this. He basically said, “It’s not fully written out, but just riff.” So much of what I’m saying in there is me making shit up.
AVC: “One of the darkest tunnels in Canada” was improvised?
JP: I think so, yeah.
AVC: Train aficionados are known to be a zealous group. Have you had any experience with those folks because of the movie?
JP: I can’t say that I have, but I did look into that world a bit. I haven’t crossed paths with that community as of yet.
AVC: In your research, what did you find?
JP: That was their life. And maybe that was an early sign of being on the spectrum or who knows what—people that get so obsessed with a very, very small slice and they know everything about it. It’s always so fascinating what people will zero in on. They probably have some kind of job to support what’s most important, which is these trains. I love it. It’s always fun experimenting with a character that has that level of enthusiasm—narrow focus, but intense focus.
Safe Men (1998)—”Mitchell”
JP: [Writer-director] John Hamburg, he literally looked like he was 12. It was me and Mark Ruffalo, and we became close friends. Sam Rockwell and Steve Zahn. And Paul Giamatti. An amazing cast. We were having the time of our lives. We just had so much fun with that movie. I think it was marketed wrong for its theatrical release and people didn’t quite get what it was. The comedy is so subtle and off-kilter and twisted. It really has a unique tone to it. It’s like you can’t quite grab onto it. That’s what makes it so compelling. It’s like a twang. It’s almost like experimental jazz, where the beat keeps changing. People who meet me or stop me on the street, they’re so obsessed with that movie if they know it.
Mark and I found a dance in a sense of what our relationship is. I’m very handy, building things and so on, and he is as well. We used our ability to deal with objects as we were cracking safes. We choreographed some of the safecracking to make it more elaborate and complicated-looking and high-tech… Anytime I get to work with people that are willing to be prepared and then step into the unknown—and find it as it’s happening—that’s a peak experience for everybody in this art form.
The Dropout (2022)—“Wade Miquelon”
JP: Michael Showalter, who directed it and produced it, offered that to me. We had worked on Michael & Michael Have Issues on Comedy Central. The three principals were me, Michael Showalter, and Michael Ian Black. Michael called and said, “I have this role for you,” and I was thrilled. We’ve been talking about people being obsessed and driven in a very particular, narrow focus. The head of Walgreens was a guy like that. Walgreens is his life. Like, this is it. It was great material. It was really fun exploring somebody who is trying to get to the truth. Like, is she trying to screw us? And then having doubt about that. And then getting hooked, committing fully, and then finding out you got screwed.
AVC: The other part is your byplay with Alan Ruck, who is the devil on your shoulder. You had such great rapport.
JP: We did. Alan and I worked together on The Bronx Is Burning, so it was a great reunion. Somehow, the four Walgreens guys [with Andrew Leeds and Rich Sommer], it was brilliant casting putting us all together. We’re all very different. But it was like a comedy troupe juggling act where no matter who threw what pin up in the air, someone would catch it. It was that comedic dance: Everybody had their very specific characters, and it created this dynamism between the four of us that was so much fucking fun.
Going In Style (2017)—”Chuck Lofton”
Touchy Feely (2013)—”Paul”
Year Of The Dog (2007)—”Robin”
A Civil Action (1998)—”Law Clerk”
Ray Donovan (2013-19)—”Stu Feldman”
AVC: What was it like to work one-on-one with Michael Caine?
JP: Trippy. I’ve worked with Robert Duvall. I’ve worked with Meryl Streep. I’ve worked with De Niro. And then Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman. [Caine] was so generous and welcoming. He was so game for wherever it went. And we were just doing crazy stuff, like, rolling on the floor. He was so supportive of me, too. He’s like, “You’re really good.” That carried a lot of weight for me. That allowed me to feel good about myself for quite some time. It was a beautiful experience to work with him.
AVC: Has anyone ever told you that you weren’t good?
JP: When I started out, I was doing theater at night for free, and I was doing construction work in the day. There was a company called Circle Rep, and they had a company called The Lab Company. It was a prestigious thing to be a part of, and I wanted it so bad.
I went in and I auditioned. And the head of the program called me into his office. He was like, “Tell me what you’re passionate about, about acting?” and “Why do you wanna be an actor?” It was maybe 30 minutes. And I was like, “This is going great.” And then he said, “Well, you’re not right for the Lab because you’re not very creative.” I was devastated. And this guy, I’m not going to mention any names, but he did a lot of manipulation of people. And there was a woman involved, that I was seeing, that he—I’ll just leave it at that. That fucked me up for a year. It was early on. I don’t think about him at all anymore, but I think it was somebody that was like, “I’m gonna show you.”
But other than that, people have been very supportive. I’ve been so lucky with the directors that I’ve worked with because they get what I can do and have so often just been like, “Do your thing.” The best directors give the least amount of notes, because they trust who they’ve hired.
AVC: Who was the best director who stood back and said, “Josh, you got this. Do what you need to do.”
JP: There are many, but the person that came to mind was Lynn Shelton. The great Lynn Shelton, who is no longer with us. We did this movie together, Touchy Feely. I was the lead in that. I met Lynn at Tribeca Film Center. She had come to see Please Give, this Nicole Holofcener movie that I was in. She started talking to me as we were leaving the screening… Just the week before, I had seen Humpday. When I saw it, I was like, “What is happening here? I want to be part of this.” And then I started gushing to her. And then she said, “Let’s do something together.”
We started brainstorming about a character or a situation, and we were bantering back and forth ideas. Then she had a vision of what this movie could be and called me and said, “This is what I see.” And then I was like, “Oh yeah, and we can do this and that.” It was completely collaborative… One of the greatest collaborations for me, working with her. We did a couple things together after that, but [she] was so absolutely trusting and relished in what actors can do.
It was interesting on Checkout. This was Jonathan [Dekel]’s first feature. I noticed that after every take, he would come and have things written down and get into a bit of a conversation as opposed to, “Let’s just do it again.” At one point, I said, “You know, actors are trying to make this work as well as you are. Don’t feel that you’re obligated to give all the actors notes after every take.” He really heard that. He would give me notes. I always welcome notes. I just let him know that I welcome your ideas, but you don’t have to necessarily give me feedback after every moment. He really heard me and we found a great way of collaborating. It was a good bonding experience. I didn’t do it in a harsh way. I just let him know that we’re going to be connected on different levels, and that we don’t have to articulate everything.
That reminds me of Year Of The Dog, which Mike White directed. We developed this whole communication. He’d come up to me and he’d be like, [does Mike White impression] “Um…” It wouldn’t be words, but he’d emote a certain thing and I’d be like, “Got it.” It became crystal clear what he was saying without getting into it. He was just like [imitates White sighing]. It was the most brilliant transmission of information. It was almost helpful that it wasn’t words. It was like an energy, but it was crystal clear.
AVC: Let me end on this: Is there a project you wish more people knew about?
JP: I would say Touchy Feely, the movie that I did with Lynn. Leaves Of Grass: I wish more people had seen that. Those are the two that just popped into my head. Early on in my career, I was doing so many radically different things that it took a while for people to see, “Oh my god, it’s the same guy.”
By the time I did Ray Donovan, people had put together all the pieces. But there’s an interesting thing: People will come up to me that recognize me and they’ll whisper, “I know who you are.” Like it’s this secret that I’m keeping. Or almost like they’ve figured it out that I was in this, that, and that. I get a kick out of it.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
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