How Hacks takes the gloves off in season 4

This month, we’ll get the answer to one of the biggest moral quandaries posed by an HBO/Max show: Is it okay to betray your boss and mentor if she stabbed you in the back first? Okay, that ethical dilemma might not be as thorny as Joel’s, but when Hacks returns on April 10, it will dive right into the fallout of Ava’s (Hannah Einbinder) extortion play, which landed her the head-writer job on Deborah’s (Jean Smart) historic late-night show at the end of season three.

You could call it the straw that broke the camel’s back in their captivating, albeit fragile, relationship, if Deborah hadn’t already killed the camel and had it turned into luggage. The two spent much of season three fortifying their bond while working to achieve Deborah’s dream of hosting Late Night. But doubt was as much a part of the story as ambition, and in order to make her show “bulletproof” (read: safe), Deborah sandbagged the person who was instrumental in her nabbing the coveted gig. Never mind that the path to the late-night desk was paved with risk, from Deborah openly lobbying for the job to Ava stepping away from an award-winning show even after being offered a promotion. 

The ebb and flow of Ava and Deborah’s relationship remains one of the show’s most gripping (and amusing) elements, and in season four, it manifests in machinations, reversals of fortune, and even more uproarious two-handers. As the season begins, though, the two seem to be on more equal footing than ever: They both have their dream jobs and a few betrayals under their belts. Deborah has always been nearly impossible to work for or with, and Ava can’t seem to get out of her own way. It’s hard to guess whose side viewers will take when the season premieres: Smart and Einbinder certainly couldn’t come to an agreement when The A.V. Club caught up with the two leads during a recent press day. 

Smart made the case for Deborah, whose deep sense of hurt at being blackmailed by Ava is compounded by the fact that, the last time she was on the verge of hosting a late-night show, she was betrayed by her sister and husband. “Deborah just can’t let go of the past,” Smart said. “That’s what’s kept her going all these years, unfortunately. She thinks ‘I am this close to getting what I’ve wanted for the last 35 years. I can’t let anything get in my way now. I’ve lost too much. I’ve suffered too much. I’ve worked too hard. I’m not going to let anybody screw this up for me. Not anybody.’ And you pay a price when you think like that, for sure.” Einbinder playfully took exception with her co-star, which led to this classic Hacks-esque exchange:

Einbinder: I think that audiences sympathize more with Ava in the beginning of the season.

Smart: I don’t agree.

Einbinder: You don’t??

Smart: I think audiences are so shocked at what Ava has done to Deborah.

Einbinder: As a result of what Deborah has done!

Smart: At first they will sympathize with Deborah. That may change.

Einbinder: What?! [Laughs.]

Smart: Yeah.

Einbinder: No.

Smart: Yeah.

Einbinder: But she forced Ava’s hand!

Smart: Well, you just keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Megan Stalter and Paul W. Downs in Hacks (Photo: Max)

But regardless of who wins audience sympathy in the first round, a game of one-upwomanship is afoot. Series co-creator Paul W. Downs—who also plays Jimmy Lusaque Jr., who has his own seesaw dynamic with a colleague (Megan Stalter’s deceptively dippy Kayla)—cited that “grist” between Ava and Deborah as the “magic of the show.” When he and co-creators Lucia Aniello (who also directs) and Jen Statsky write for their leads, Down said they focus on “action and reaction,” particularly in the first half of this season. Describing the interplay as “really fun and juicy,” Downs told us Ava won’t be holding back: “She’s always clapped back at Deborah in the past, but it’s like the gloves are off. It is a different level, and it’s really fun to write that.” 

Another recurring motif this upcoming season is that of trios: Winnie Landell (Helen Hunt), who was introduced last year, plays a more prominent role as the studio exec and Gen X-er bridging the gap between her feuding employees, Boomer Deborah and millennial Ava. Though Einbinder summed up Ava’s feelings thusly—”[Winnie’s] a suit”—she and Smart agreed on her fearsomeness. “I told [Helen Hunt],” Smart said, “‘You’re out-Deborah-ing Deborah.'” Kayla and Jimmy, meanwhile, have to make room for Robbie Hoffman as Randi. “There’s no one I can imagine as a better third for them than Randi,” Downs teased about the new hire, whom Stalter described as being Kayla’s own Kayla, in a sense. 

And, as if she weren’t facing enough challenges, Ava, who thinks of herself as the “anti-Deborah” when it comes to managing people, now has to walk the walk and run a writers’ room in accordance with the principles she loves to espouse. In practice, this means behaving like those millennial manager memes—a style that Einbinder believes won’t do her character any favors. “I think people mistake her kindness for weakness in the writers’ room, which sucks,” Einbinder said. “But her breakdown is really fun.”